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On this episode of The David Frum Present, David discusses how the Trump administration is in for a stark actuality test on account of its commerce insurance policies. David additionally debunks the claims of a painless financial transition promised by President Donald Trump and makes the purpose that the administration shouldn’t be solely bluffing and mismanaging fiscal and commerce insurance policies, but in addition deceptive the general public with guarantees of simple success.
Then, David is joined by the premier of Ontario, Doug Ford, to debate Canadians’ reactions to the sudden financial and rhetorical assaults from their once-trusted American neighbors.
After the interview, David solutions listener questions in regards to the Trump base, the media strategies of fascists, and the hidden present of Trumpism.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
David Frum: Whats up, and welcome again to The David Frum Present. I’m David Frum, a employees author at The Atlantic, and I’m grateful that you’d be a part of us once more this second week of this system.
This week, my visitor will probably be Ontario Premier Doug Ford. Now, I ought to clarify, if anybody doesn’t realize it: I, too, am a Canadian and an Ontarian by start, and I nonetheless spend plenty of time there.
I’m going to be chatting with the premier in regards to the sense of shock and dismay that Canadians have felt about Donald Trump’s threats, not solely to the commerce association between Canada and the USA, however his calls for that Canada be annexed to the USA.
You already know, the Trump individuals, once they’re making an attempt to justify the financial coverage that despatched world monetary markets into such chaos over the previous weeks, they attempt to current this as some form of confrontation with China alone, as a result of they don’t wish to admit to People that they’re waging a commerce warfare in opposition to your entire planet. This isn’t an anti-China marketing campaign; that is an anti-everybody marketing campaign. And it’s a marketing campaign through which America has virtually actually no allies, besides possibly El Salvador.
The commerce warfare started with assaults on Canada, supposedly and traditionally America’s closest neighbor and ally. You’ll suppose if you happen to had been making an attempt to construct an anti-China coalition, you’d begin by consolidating the North American heartland, particularly the U.S.-Canada relationship. That’s precisely the other of what has occurred.
I’ll be speaking to the premier about that, how Canadians really feel about it—not a lot the information and figures of the connection, huge as it’s, however what it has been like for Canadians to be on the receiving finish of threats of annexation, threats of violence, and this unrelenting marketing campaign of tariffs and harassment, which has not been paused. The tariffs in opposition to China paused and unpaused. However these in opposition to Canada have remained constantly in place from the very starting of the Trump administration. It’s weird. It’s stunning. It’s upsetting. And that’s what we’re going to speak about this week on The David Frum Present.
After the interview, I will probably be discussing and answering some reader questions. However first, some opening ideas on the occasions of the previous week.
[Music]
Frum: When Donald Trump and people round him need to demean or dismiss some opponent, some critic, they generally use the phrase, He doesn’t have the playing cards. They’ve stated that about Volodymyr Zelensky and the Ukrainian individuals’s resistance to Russian aggression. They’ve stated it about Canada and different buying and selling companions.
The implication is that the opposite particular person is simply too weak, too insignificant to be bothered to be worthy of respect. However there’s one other implication, too, which is that the USA and the Trump administration does have the playing cards, is so mighty and fearsome that others should give method.
Now, the USA is clearly a really highly effective nation with plenty of sources of command and management. However you will need to perceive that, in actual fact, Donald Trump doesn’t have the playing cards that he thinks he does, and that’s one of many causes that this marketing campaign of financial aggression he’s launched—not in opposition to China however in opposition to the entire planet, each nation nearly, virtually each buying and selling nation—is coming amiss and can possible finish in failure, and even catastrophe.
Let’s simply take Donald Trump critically for a second. He doesn’t deserve it, however let’s simply, for our personal sakes, do it: supposing a president of the USA got here to workplace and stated, You already know what? My prime precedence goes to be reshoring manufacturing in the USA. I personally don’t agree that this ought to be anyone’s prime precedence, however let’s suppose it had been a president’s prime precedence: reshoring manufacturing. That’s what Donald Trump says he desires to do. How would you go about it?
Effectively, first you admit to your self, if to nobody else, that you’re proposing a really bold and costly process, one that may contain plenty of dislocation. So that you’d withstand that. You’ll attempt to construct some form of political consensus in favor of the bumpy, troublesome path you had been proposing for the nation. You’ll maximize your pals at residence. You’ll attain out to different events. You wouldn’t behave in an smug method that had lots of people hoping on your failure, and you wouldn’t begin committing every kind of different offenses—and even crimes—that put you in every kind of precarious positions, the place something went flawed, and your complete program would come a cropper.
You’ll perceive you had been doing one thing that was not simple, was not going to be quick, was going to be expensive, was going to impose vital hardship on many individuals. You’d work with allies. You’d construct a big coalition as a result of even when as you’re shrinking your provide chains to maneuver issues away from China, you’re nonetheless going to want varied sorts of inputs from different nations—uncooked supplies, if nothing else. And also you’d need to guarantee that as many nations as potential had been sympathetic to what you had been doing, reasonably than wishing that you’d fail and fearing your aggression. You definitely wouldn’t open campaigns of territorial aggression in opposition to neighbors and allies. You wouldn’t say, We’re going to annex Greenland from Denmark, and we’re going to attempt to conquer Canada and make it a 51st state. You wouldn’t do any of these issues.
You’ll additionally perceive the connection between your monetary program and your financial program. Now, it is a little technical, nevertheless it’s actually essential to know. The rationale the USA has such an enormous commerce deficit is strictly and exactly as a result of the USA imports a lot capital from different nations. The present account and the capital account—to offer them their technical names—have to maneuver collectively.
So one motive the USA has had such an growth of its commerce deficit in recent times is, first, that the USA is importing a lot capital within the type of non-public funding. Individuals are shopping for into American corporations, which is an effective factor. However it’s additionally as a result of the USA has run large finances deficits. So foreigners purchase plenty of American debt as a result of there’s plenty of American debt to purchase.
A primary step—and an indispensable step—in the direction of shrinking your commerce deficit is to shrink your finances deficit. So you’d have a fiscal plan that labored in parallel to your commerce plan, your financial plan, whereas as a substitute of, as Donald Trump has achieved, precisely the other. His plan is to make the deficit greater on a fantasy that with sufficient tariffs, he could make the commerce deficit smaller. And that’s not going to work.
You’ll stage with individuals. You wouldn’t promise individuals fast and straightforward success. The hardships which have come, and are to return, are going to reach and are arriving as a complete shock to People. They had been promised that this was going to be fast and straightforward. Folks within the Trump administration are nonetheless promising that the inventory market will go up any day quickly, not understanding: You already know what? Reshoring all this manufacturing, it’s going to dislocate plenty of preparations. Lots of companies are going to shut. Lots of people are going to lose their jobs.
Possibly they’ll discover new ones. Conceivably—I don’t consider it, however conceivably—the brand new ones will probably be higher paid. In all probability not. However if you happen to suppose it’s form of extra manly for People to work with their fingers in factories than to work in places of work or in service jobs, if you happen to suppose that that’s going to fortify the character of the nation and the financial sacrifice is price it, don’t go promising those that they’re going to be higher off, as a result of it’s not true. And they’re going to discover, and they are going to be mad, and they’re going to discover quickly.
Don’t additionally say that your aim right here is the strengthening of the American household. One of many issues we find out about households is they have an inclination to return aside in occasions of financial misery, particularly the non-college educated. Throughout a recession, charges of divorce go up; charges of childbirth go down. If these are your prime priorities, perceive that they battle with the opposite prime precedence of reorganizing your entire American economic system.
Don’t additionally make plenty of appeals to freedom, as a result of a top-down reorganization of the American economic system is many issues, however a free-market challenge it’s not. It’s an act of state management, of state assertion, of central planning. Somebody has grimly joked of central planning with out a plan. However there’s a notion, there’s an idea that the individuals on the prime—the individuals with authority—suppose {that a} sure method of organizing the economic system could be higher than different methods, they usually’re going to make use of the facility of the state to implement their imaginative and prescient.
So you must drop all this discuss financial freedom, as a result of that’s not what we’re doing. Financial freedom belongs to those that are free merchants. With the reorientation of the economic system towards manufacturing, you’re committing to the tariff regime, which is extremely intrusive. You’re committing to most likely varied sorts of retraining packages. You’re committing to state subsidies to, at a minimal, to purchase off the farmers, however state subsidies in different industries too.
And in the end, if you happen to’re not going to have a shrunken finances deficit and also you’re going to do the tariffs and also you’re going to attempt to reshore manufacturing, in the end, you’re going to find your self needing some form of capital or trade management to manage the stream of cash out and in of your nation.
So it is a large, old school, wartime-economy challenge, by no means a free-market one. And also you’d higher acknowledge that to your self. As an alternative, what has occurred is that Trump has offered this in a method that’s so false, so misleading, that the story goes to unravel quicker than he can ship any conceivable profit. By no means thoughts web profit—any profit in any respect.
So what he’s going to find is he’s doing this all with bluff. He doesn’t have the playing cards. His promise of simple, low-cost success, properly, it comes naturally to him as a result of he’s form of a flimflam artist, and all his life, he has bilked individuals who have trusted him. On this case, he’s making an attempt to bilk a complete nation.
I don’t fear about this, as a result of, as I say, I don’t want any of this challenge properly. I believe the entire challenge is ill-conceived, even when it had been an sincere challenge. And it’s not sincere. However I believe he has begun this challenge by mendacity even to himself about how simple it’s going to be, how briskly it’s going to be, how remunerative it’s going to be. And I believe what all of us odor coming from this administration within the gentle of the unraveling of self-deception is the odor of panic.
And that is the entire thing. That is the factor. I believe that the entire world—and particularly the Chinese language, who’re supposedly the targets of the Trump program—are smelling panic. They’re smelling concern. They’re smelling imminent defeat.
You already know, the USA was bought this challenge as a method of reaffirming American energy and greatness. In truth, what we’re witnessing isn’t just a disaster of the American economic system however a disaster of American energy. All types of different assets of the American state—the nice title, the credibility, the alliance system—all this stuff are additionally at risk proper now. And we’re going to discover ourselves, on the finish of this Trump program, which can be coming quicker than anybody believes—this complete factor might collapse fairly rapidly—however when it does collapse, it’s going to be laborious to place collectively a second plan. It’s going to be laborious to steer nations which have been focused by the tariffs, the nations which have been threatened with aggression, the nations which have been deserted that the USA has repented and can do higher.
And I’m not pondering right here nearly shut American associates however a few nation like Vietnam, which is a historic enemy of China—which welcomed the opening of an financial tie to the USA as a technique to each enrich themselves and in addition to offer them some leverage in opposition to their highly effective neighbor. They’re now pondering, As nasty because the Chinese language are, they might be extra dependable. And we’re seeing a revival of high-level visits between Vietnam and China in a method that’s going to be very laborious to undo.
Authoritarian states like Vietnam have plenty of coverage continuity. As soon as they choose one thing—it comes out of an enormous bureaucratic means of choice, however as soon as they choose it—that turns into the plan. And in the event that they’ve turn into satisfied that the USA below Donald Trump—that the USA, typically—shouldn’t be a dependable associate, that’s not one thing they’re going to vary their thoughts about when the USA says, Oops. Sorry it didn’t work out. We didn’t hit the Dow 50,000 goal that Peter Navarro promised. We’re rethinking this. We’re going to attempt one thing else. We’ve received to pause. We’ve received an unpause, then we’re pausing once more and unpausing once more. By all of this, the USA goes to seek out itself in worse and worse form.
And now my interview with Ontario Premier Doug Ford. After that, I’ll be answering questions from viewers and listeners. Please keep in mind to love and subscribe to The David Frum Present.
However first a fast break.
[Break]
Frum: Premier Ford, welcome.
Doug Ford: Effectively, thanks for having me on, David.
Frum: I ought to point out I used to be born in Ontario. I’ve a home in Ontario. I pay property taxes in Ontario, however I don’t vote in Ontario, so that you get the perfect of all potential worlds from me.
Ford: (Laughs.) Effectively, that’s nice. I can’t stand taxes. By no means raised a tax ever.
Frum: That is the place I need to begin. So that you’ve been working very laborious on American tv—
Ford: Sure.
Frum: —speaking in regards to the relationship between Canada and the USA, between Ontario and the neighboring states, the information, the figures, the large dimension of this relationship. I need to transfer away from that meat-and-potatoes, facts-and-figures method to ask a form of query I believe People might not perceive and would recognize your perception into.
Lots of People, even the people who find themselves not sympathetic to what President Trump is doing, deal with his feedback about Canada as form of a joke: Annexing the 51st state—it’s a troll. It’s a joke. I don’t suppose they perceive the affect that that is having, that this type of speak has on Canadians. So might you simply [say], as somebody who comes from a right-of-center background—not a tax raiser, not a big-government man—as somebody who comes from the identical a part of the world, mainly, because the Trump voters come from, how all of this lands when Canadians and Ontarians hear it?
Ford: Effectively, what it’s, David, we’ve all the time thought ourselves a part of the household, and it’s been that method for, oh, generations. And I believe individuals had been shocked. They had been disenchanted—if I might say the phrase damage—as a result of Canadians love People. They completely love them. They spend plenty of time within the U.S. And People love Canadians. I’ve talked to so many hardcore Trump supporters who’re saying, Yeah, I might do something for Trump, however I don’t like the way in which he’s treating our—one man stated—little brother. And that’s the way in which we glance upon it too.
I spent 20 years of my life within the U.S., and I like the U.S. I like the American individuals. I traveled fairly properly to virtually each state quite a few occasions, and I simply consider we’re stronger collectively. I consider within the “Am-Can fortress,” the American-Canadian fortress. Put a hoop round it. Nobody can contact us.
We’ve all of the pure assets, the power, every thing that the U.S. wants, and we’d like the U.S. We’re the No. 1 buyer, as I name it. We’re their No. 1 buyer, so vice versa. And we simply must work collectively. The menace shouldn’t be Canada; it’s China. It’s a must to regulate China. I’ve been saying it for years now, and it’s coming to fruition.
Frum: I believe one of many issues that baffles lots of people within the Canadian enterprise neighborhood particularly is: It’s a posh relationship. There are all the time chafing factors. All people understands that lumber, dairy—there have been points that return a very long time. What I hear from individuals within the enterprise world is that Trump individuals aren’t saying something you’ll be able to even say sure to. The grievances appear so imaginary. Everybody is aware of the medication don’t stream from Canada to the USA. They stream from the USA to Canada. The weapons stream from the USA to Canada. Flows of producers go from the USA to Canada. Canada sends power, and there’s a commerce back-and-forth in companies. In order that they don’t hear it. Like, even when they needed to say sure, they will’t, as a result of the grievances don’t appear actual.
Ford: Effectively, that’s as a result of they aren’t actual. It’s very, quite simple. And, you recognize, it’s the uncertainty that President Trump has put not simply on Canada, on your entire world. You already know, I all the time say you must take a web page out of Ronald Reagan’s e-book again in 1988, on the free-trade deal. And, you recognize, protectionism doesn’t work. It doesn’t work anyplace on the earth. It gained’t work between Canada and the U.S. The provision chain is so built-in.
Everybody’s heard in regards to the auto elements going forwards and backwards six, seven, eight occasions earlier than they get assembled in a plant in Ontario or a plant within the U.S., be it Michigan or every other auto plant. I all the time say—you recognize, the Auto Pact’s been round since 1965—and you’ll’t unscramble an egg. It’s a must to make the omelet bigger. And that’s the auto sector. However there are such a lot of different sectors that the availability chain is so built-in. You simply can’t flip on a change and switch it off.
Frum: Effectively, you talked about the Auto Pact. I believe plenty of People don’t perceive once they hear President Trump say and his surrogates say, We wish Canada to signal some nice new commerce deal, that Canadian-U.S. commerce has been wrapped in offers. They return to the Nineteen Fifties for protection, to the Nineteen Sixties for autos, the primary Canada-U.S. Free Commerce Settlement to the ’80s, NAFTA replace within the ’90s, the Trump model of NAFTA within the 2010s.
And what Trump has been doing is saying, All these signatures don’t imply something. We wish one other set of signatures. And one of many questions I believe it’s essential to have and Canadians will need to have is, properly, if the final set of signatures don’t imply something, why would you like new signatures?
Ford: And that’s what individuals have been saying, David. You already know, President Trump made the final deal. I used to be a part of that take care of Secretary [Robert] Lighthizer. And President Trump stated it was the best deal ever. I suppose it’s not the best deal ever anymore. So I’m not too certain what he desires to do or the place he desires to go, however we’re simply stronger collectively. With all of the threats all over the world, we have to stick collectively.
When China’s chopping the U.S. off of essential minerals for his or her navy use, we’ve got all of the essential minerals. Ontario has extra essential minerals than anyplace on the earth. We need to ship them right down to our closest pal and ally to assist them. As an illustration, nickel: 50 % of the high-grade nickel the U.S. makes use of comes from Sudbury. And I emphasize high-grade nickel. There’s a distinction. They use it of their navy, use it of their aerospace, of their manufacturing. To not point out the aluminum and the metal and different essential minerals that I might listing. And who higher to offer it to than our closest associates?
Frum: I perceive you usually speak to Secretary of Commerce [Howard] Lutnick. What are these conversations like, with out asking you to say something you shouldn’t say? Does he place the decision? Do you place the decision? How do you greet one another? Is it cordial? What occurs on these calls?
Ford: Effectively, it’s all the time cordial. He’s a really, very vivid particular person. He understands the markets, and that’s why it’s mind-boggling to so many individuals, elected officers, private-sector of us. He’s a wise man, and the market’s talking. And if you see the market tumbling, it’s not about Wall Avenue shedding cash; it’s about Primary Avenue shedding cash.
The mother and pops which might be on the market which have cash in pension funds—and we’ve got plenty of pension funds in Toronto, most likely one of many largest group of pension funds—they make investments in all places on the earth, they usually make investments closely into the U.S. So when their pension fund drops $2 billion or $3 billion over a three-day interval, that’s regarding.
It’s regarding to those that need to make investments all over the world. They put that on maintain. We’re going to see inflation if you’re focusing on tariffs—which, by the way in which, I assist all of the tariffs in opposition to China, however there’s a method of dealing with it.
Frum: Do you ever inform Secretary Lutnick that he might make all people billions and billions of {dollars} if he might simply maintain his yap shut for 48 hours?
Ford: (Laughs.) Effectively, I by no means get private with the president, by no means get private with the secretary. However I’m not too certain in the event that they notice the affect on your entire world when one man speaks; it will probably shift every thing. In order that they need to be cognitive of each phrase that comes out of their mouth. It’s simply so, so essential for the U.S., for the residents, to guarantee that we proceed thriving and prospering. And that’s what would occur if we made this Am-Can fortress.
Frum: Are you able to speak a little bit bit in regards to the 51st-state troll?
Ford: Sure.
Frum: As a result of Canada and the USA have a relationship that’s so built-in, every thing from migratory birds and the Nice Lakes. And vehicles break down on the bridges, and in the event that they break down on this a part of the bridge, it’s an American visitors drawback. In the event that they break down on this a part of the bridge, it’s a Canadian visitors drawback. Police coordination. Your relationship together with your counterparts in Lansing and Albany; you most likely work with them each single day. And but they’re two nations with completely different cultures and histories. Discuss a little bit bit about the way it feels to Canadians when People say, Your nation doesn’t matter, though we’ve got this nice cooperative relationship.
Ford: Effectively, what I did say to Secretary Lutnick, and I’ll say it publicly: The distinction between People proper now—and I’ve an incredible quantity of associates and contacts within the U.S.—they’re simply form of occurring their method. They’ve woken up a little bit bit over the previous few weeks. However 40 million Canadians are at a fever pitch proper now. They’re prepared to sacrifice. They’re patriotic, like patriotism I’ve by no means seen. We all the time say how Canadians are so well mannered. Effectively, they’re at a fever pitch proper now and prepared to do something and sacrifice something to guard their sovereignty. And so they’re passionate. Once more, I’ve by no means seen the patriotism like I’ve seen over the previous few months.
Frum: You simply gained an election on these points.
Ford: Sure.
Frum: And there’s now one other election on the federal stage being fought, the place the Trump difficulty is central.
Ford: Sure.
Frum: Do you suppose that the Trump individuals perceive that they’re remaking Canadian politics in ways in which might shock them, in methods probably they might not like, due to their blundering interventions into Canadian life?
Ford: I believe they’re taking part in a huge effect on Canadian politics. They performed a huge effect on my election as working for a 3rd mandate, and I talked in regards to the tariffs. That was a very powerful difficulty on all our polling. Tariffs had been No. 1 as a result of that impacts their lives. You already know, I all the time say, the inspiration of our health-care system, schooling, our infrastructure, our enterprise—the inspiration is your economic system. That’s what retains every thing going. And when there’s an assault in your economic system, that impacts each different sector right here in Canada, nevertheless it additionally impacts each sector within the U.S. as properly.
Frum: Let me finish by asking you about the way in which ahead, the way in which again to normality. Prime Minister [Mark] Carney, who might or is probably not prime minister subsequent month, he faces an election on the finish of April. Prime Minister Carney is form of an interim prime minister. He stated nothing will ever be the identical, and proper now it is extremely laborious to see a method again to regular. Do you see a method again? What would that appear like, ranging from the place we’re, with the extraordinary feeling in Canada in opposition to what has been stated about Canada?
Ford: Effectively, I all the time take a look at the glass being half full. I believe there’s a chance to drop these tariffs, construct on our strengths. We could be the 2 strongest, wealthiest, most affluent nations on the earth. If we get the [Keystone] XL pipeline, begin heading south. We have to construct pipelines east, west, and north as properly. We have to guarantee that we get the essential minerals out of the bottom and promote them to our associates south of the border. And in the event that they’re at capability, then we ship them all over the world to our allies, not our foes. We need to ship them to our associates and make Canada stronger and make the U.S. stronger and safer. That’s what we have to do. And we’re client gluttons in Canada. We hit method above our weight for 40 million individuals.
Frum: Let me focus that query about the way in which again a little bit bit extra. In our earlier lives, I believe we are able to each keep in mind a time when Canada was a way more state-dominated economic system, rather more protectionist. There was a government-owned oil firm, government-owned different companies in locations the federal government had no enterprise being. There was plenty of distrust of American funding. There was international investment-review acts. We keep in mind the primary Trudeau authorities’s national-energy coverage, the place they tried to create a form of remoted Canadian power market.
You already know, from the ’60s to the ’80s, Canada was an inward-looking, isolationist, protectionist, state-dominated economic system, in a method that modified within the Eighties with the free-trade settlement, the Mulroney authorities, and governments like yours, Ralph Klein in Alberta. Prime Minister Carney typically seems like he’s speaking about returning to that previous method, the place there could be a made-in-Canada automobile, and that the value of Trump to Canada isn’t just what he’s doing to Canada however the way in which he’s altering Canada to make Canada extra inward.
Do you are worried about that? Do you suppose that’s a resistible pattern? Do you suppose that’s a battle that may be gained within the face of the form of strain on Canada at this time?
Ford: Effectively, David, I completely disagree with that, something to do with protectionism. Do I consider in onshoring? I’ll provide you with a pair examples.
Aluminum cans: 65 % of the aluminum the U.S. wants comes from Quebec. So we ship down the aluminum. The 2 large breweries and the 2 large beverage corporations, they print it, convert it, and ship it again up. They get hit 25 % on the way in which down, 25 % on the way in which again. It drives up the price to the patron. And I’ve to ask, there’s a billion-dollar business. Why are we not making cans right here in Ontario? That’s one space.
I came upon the opposite day, we’ve got three large metal crops—Stelco, Dofasco, and Algoma—and we don’t make metal beams right here. And we’ve got extra cranes within the sky in Toronto than New York, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, L.A., they usually even threw in Honolulu mixed. So we have to construct metal beams.
The final one, I’ll provide you with an instance. We ship wheat right down to the U.S., they usually make cereal. I came upon that we don’t actually have a cereal producer right here. We used to have Kellogg. However these are easy areas that I consider in onshoring to guarantee that we’ve got a provide of cans at a decrease—
Frum: American spaghetti is all constructed from Canadian wheat, or virtually all.
Ford: Yeah, that’s proper. Yeah. After which a few of the packaging and spaghetti comes as much as Canada, which I’ve no drawback with.
It was like [during] the pandemic, when President Trump reduce us off from the N95 masks, properly, we stood up an business in two months. And we’ll by no means depend on anybody in that space once more. We’re making our personal N95 masks, our robes, every thing else right here. We will manufacture something in Canada, completely something.
Frum: You may have your hand on the on-off electrical energy change flowing south to the USA?
Ford: Yeah, I need to ship them extra electrical energy. You already know, we’re sharing the know-how of the small modular reactors. We’re leaders within the G7 on the SMRs.
And I simply had Governor [Spencer] Cox right here from Utah, a Republican governor. What a gentleman. The very first thing we did, we introduced them as much as Darlington, the place we’re making the small modular reactors. We’re working with U.S. corporations—Normal Electrical, Tennessee Valley Authority, and Hitachi’s in there as properly—however we’re saying, Right here. We’re going to share this know-how.
They want power, the U.S. We’ve the power, we’ve got the know-how, and we’re sharing it with them. We’ve orders for over $100 billion from Europe for the small modular reactors. And anybody who doesn’t perceive SMR—it may be any dimension, however let’s simply use it as roughly the scale of a Walmart. It could energy a city of 400,000 individuals. And it’s handy. It’s clear, inexperienced, dependable, inexpensive power. That’s the way in which of the long run.
Frum: Thanks a lot for making time for us at this time.
Ford: Thanks, David. And I simply need to inform the People, we love you. I like the People, and will God bless the U.S., and will God bless Canada. And let’s get by means of this and get this deal achieved.
Frum: Thanks a lot. Bye-bye.
[Break]
Frum: Thanks to Premier Doug Ford for that candid, highly effective interview.
As talked about, I additionally reside in Ontario. I’ve a home there, and I’ve witnessed myself what the premier has described. This surge of damage and dismay and, above all, shock amongst Canadians on the response to Canada within the Trump administration. What did Canada do to convey all of this hatred and need for annexation on? It’s very puzzling and really upsetting, and Premier Ford has been somebody who’s given highly effective voice to these emotions.
As talked about, we’re going to attempt to experiment with viewer and listener interplay on this program. It’s one thing that has been misplaced on the web—the collapse of remark sections from the early web, the demise of Twitter as any form of helpful platform of trade. I’m going to attempt to restore some interactivity right here. We’ll see the way it goes. Because of everybody who despatched a query. We’ve chosen three. I hope listeners and viewers will ship extra inquiries to producer@thedavidfrumshow.com. And listed here are the three for this week.
The primary comes from Paul within the Bay Space, and he asks, “Do you suppose Trump supporters are having purchaser’s regret?”
Now, the Trump base is famously stable, highly effective, even form of threatening. Many in Congress on the Republican aspect hesitate to vote their consciences on issues like free commerce, as a result of they’re so frightened of what Trump supporters contained in the get together would possibly do. However elections aren’t misplaced from the bottom. Elections are misplaced on the fringe. Keep in mind: 1932, the Nice Despair. People are going hungry. Transient camps on the sting of each American metropolis. Herbert Hoover nonetheless gained 38 % of the vote in 1932. You don’t lose your base; that’s why it’s known as the bottom. What you lose is the perimeter and the sting. And there are plenty of indicators that President Trump is in serious trouble.
Throughout his first time period, his private approval was by no means that nice. People noticed him for what he was, a bully—or possibly not wholly for what he was, however they noticed plenty of what he was—a bully, loudmouth, form of a thug. They didn’t prefer it, however they did benefit from the economic system of 2017, 2018, and 2019. They didn’t care whether or not he’d achieved it himself or whether or not he’d inherited it from Barack Obama. These had been good occasions, and folks appreciated it till the COVID crash, for which they largely didn’t blame Trump. They noticed that as some exterior occasion that possibly he didn’t handle in addition to he might have, nevertheless it wasn’t his fault.
Now there’s plenty of knowledge that reveals Trump’s financial numbers are heading south, and that’s earlier than vital layoffs have begun. Up to now, the disaster that Trump began totally on his personal has been a financial-market occasion. And it’s just like the gathering of a storm, not the storm itself. The storm is coming, and if it expresses itself in layoffs, in residence foreclosures, I believe you’ll see an enormous response to that.
You already hear nervousness from Republican members of Congress in regards to the 2026 elections. If these elections are allowed to proceed in a free and truthful method—which is, sadly, not the understanding that it should be—I believe there’s going to be a worth to pay for the errors of the previous months and the additional errors that appear to be coming.
So I don’t know that you simply’ll ever get, Paul, the form of response from the pro-Trump talkers on many platforms to say, We lied to you. We knew we had been mendacity. The entire thing was a catastrophe. We’re so sorry. We need to make some form of repentance. I don’t suppose these of us are ever going to apologize in the way in which that maybe you’d want. However will there be sufficient cracks within the Trump coalition to weaken the place of the Trump presidency resulting in the midterms? And can there be some form of correction within the midterms in the event that they’re allowed to occur? I believe the reply to that’s fairly strongly sure.
A query from Hans. In final week’s program, I made a reference to the way in which through which the far proper of at this time has turn into a really adept consumer of recent social media. And Hans requested, “I’ve been pondering for years that there was a comparability to be made between fascist authoritarian use of radio and movie within the Twenties and Nineteen Thirties, and the fitting’s use of social media at this time.” And he needed me to develop this thought some extra.
It’s an enormous mistake to imagine that simply because individuals have reactionary social views, that they may essentially be backward of their use of know-how. In truth, fairly the opposite, actually because they’re so alienated from the society of the current, they’re looking in every kind of unlooked-for locations in ways in which people who find themselves extra glad with society don’t.
For instance, cable TV has, clearly, viewers issues, and that’s a much-discussed truth. One of many issues that the brand new media have found is there’s a large, untapped viewers for conspiratorial anti-Semitism, and individuals who communicate to this will construct large on-line followings. Most of the most profitable podcasters of at this time have found conspiratorial anti-Semitism as a terrific useful resource, they usually’re constructing audiences bigger than CNN, MSNBC, even Fox.
Why? Cable information is a bit more old school that method, thank goodness, and is saying, You already know, though there’s an enormous revenue to be made, we’re not going there. However new media has stated, We’re searching for each form of new alternative, and if conspiratorial anti-Semitism is the wave of the long run, that’s for us.
And so that you see this flourishing of the worst form of concepts in essentially the most superior locations on the latest platforms. I believe if we’re going to carry society onto a greater path, if we’re going to carry media and public dialogue onto a greater path, we’re going to need to observe the worst individuals in society onto the latest platforms and to speak within the latest methods. And that’s one of many issues I’m making an attempt to do right here on this platform, to say, You already know what? We will use the brand new media and nonetheless say conspiratorial anti-Semitism is for crackpots, cranks, and cruel individuals of all other forms.
Query from Michael: “In your e-book Trumpocracy, you highlighted a few of the hidden items of the Trump presidency. Eight years later, are we any near unwrapping and having fun with the fruits of these items, or are we vulnerable to squandering them without end?”
So it is a reference to an commentary I made in a long-ago e-book about there being potential advantages. One of many issues that could be a present of Trump, and possibly not a present any of us need, is: Trump’s second time period brings to People the present of humility. I believe plenty of People have an assumption that issues that occur somewhere else at different intervals in historical past might by no means occur right here. A well-known e-book about American fascism bears the title It Can’t Occur Right here.
I believe Donald Trump is displaying that People belong to the identical human race because the Germans, the Italians, and the Japanese. We’re not particular creatures of God. We’re not resistant to the vices of humanity. America has had, on the entire, a extra lucky historical past than different nations—not in each method an ideal historical past, however a extra lucky historical past. And so political extremism has tended to not get the acquisition in the USA than it has in much less lucky nations.
However there isn’t any innate American immunity to extremism. And there’s no assure that America should keep a democracy without end. It’s actually as much as all of us, and Donald Trump has taught us that lesson—is educating us that lesson. If we need to maintain what has been nice and good about America, we’re going to need to work over the following years the way in which People have seldom labored earlier than of their political historical past.
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Frum: This episode of The David Frum Present was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
I’m David Frum. Thanks for listening.
